With cannabis legalization in effect in Canada and states discussing (or already having passed) legalization laws, it's nice to see a sensible viewpoint on THC limits

"gin-san - shitpost specialist" (gin-san-) 12/11/2019 at 12:57 • Filed to: HEY HEY HEY SMOKE WEED EVERY DAY

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Zero-tolerance for THC doesn’t make sense to me because of how it lingers in the system. You definitely shouldn’t smoke and drive, but there’s a difference between having a smoke and driving a few hours later versus smoking right before getting in the car.

Cannabis also affects people differently; people new to it or returning to it after a long hiatus are going to be completely incapacitated if they smoked the amount that I’m used to smoking.

In my opinion, alcohol is still a much greater risk when it comes to impaired driving.

This is no way justifying people who drive while high, it’s just that we need to have a better way of measuring who’s actually high or not, and I don’t know if that’s possible, yet.

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The Ghost of Oppo > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 13:22

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“I consider it one of the biggest myths about cannabis, that there are 24-hour hangover effects that are measurable,”

I’ve heard some ridiculous 1950s propaganda myths about weed, but that’s the first time I’ve heard that one .

CalzoneGolem > The Ghost of Oppo 12/11/2019 at 13:28

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“ ... a nd the other t wo... Well ... the other two were females...”

gin-san - shitpost specialist > The Ghost of Oppo 12/11/2019 at 13:29

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It’s a new one for me, too . I suppose it could be plausible if you’re someone who almost never smokes, you end up smoking a LOT of strong stuff and don’t get a good night’s sleep (anecdotally, I can say that sleep is very different when I smoke versus weeks where I don’t smoke). Even then, I’d expect that you’d be groggy for the first couple of hours of the next morning, not “hungover”.

Let me put in this way - smoking too much weed has never left me wishing for death, unlike drinking too much alcohol.

TorqueToYield > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 13:36

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https://madd.ca/pages/how-long-after-smoking-cannabis-is-it-safe-to-drive/

The whole situation is a bit of a fucking mess with no good tests.

Textured Soy Protein > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 13:43

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The problem with testing for THC is it’s fat-soluble and stays in your system for a long time. So, there’s no reliable way right now to distinguish between THC that’s affecting the user vs THC that’s accumulated in stored fat. Allowing people to have some non-zero amount of THC in their system before they “fail” a drug test is a step in the right direction but it still wouldn’t account for situations where, say, someone is a heavy smoker but takes a week off before a test. They’re still going to have a high number on a test, even if they're not impaired in any way.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 13:47

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Years ago I watched a show, I wish I could remember what it was, but they did a test using multiple people and had them actua lly drive on a closed course with cones, surprise obstructions, etc. It was spread out over multiple days, so on one day they all drove the course sober, another after drinking shots of liquor and another after smoking cannabis.

Based on the testing people under the influence of alcohol drove the worst, driving faster and hitting more things. The next worst group was the sober one, if you can believe it. Overconfident, too fast, hit stuff. The Cannabis group drove slower, were more cautious overall, and ultimately hit fewer obstacles.

Go figure.

hillrat > CalzoneGolem 12/11/2019 at 13:48

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A+ for the MadVillain reference.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Textured Soy Protein 12/11/2019 at 13:49

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This is basically me - for better or for worse I do smoke regularly. Not heavy, but I do like to smoke or vape cannabis after work.

It’s also part of the reason why if I plan on drinking any alcohol I take a cab - I don’t want my sobriety called into question because I have a fuckton of THC in my system even though I may be well below the legal limit for alcohol.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > TorqueToYield 12/11/2019 at 13:52

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I was expecting a much stricter view, especially coming from MADD. It’s actually the same perspective that I have - for regular smokers/vapers , after a few hours you’re probably fine. For noobs, you’re probably writing off more time than that, and if you eat it you’re on your fucking own because edibles have ranged from totally ineffective to “holy fuck I’m tripping balls” despite having THC concentrations listed on the packaging.

412GTI > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 13:54

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That is good to see other have a sensible outlook, although I do think it’s going to be hard to judge what’s a DUI or not without more testing. Is there a difference in driving/time between smokable or edibles.  I still see zero tolerance being the way states go as more legalize weed.

I occasionally partake in the activity & know I shouldn’t drive for at a minimum 5-6 hours, but usually just wouldn’t do it unless I’m parked for the night. Funny thing about the weed “hangover”, I think I’m more likely to drive worse with a alcohol induced hangover, you can move on pretty quickly a day after consuming THC. 

gin-san - shitpost specialist > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 12/11/2019 at 13:57

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I can believe that; it’d be cool to see studies like this repeated so that there is a greater body of evidence from which we can draw conclusions and sensible legislation.

Honestly, cannabis isn’t even near the same level of concern for me when comparing it to drinking and driving or dicking around on your phone while driving.

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 14:10

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This is the correct take 

CalzoneGolem > hillrat 12/11/2019 at 14:25

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It’s a B eyond the V alley of the D olls reference

Which I only know because of smoke 2 joints.

BigBlock440 > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 14:34

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Cannabis also affects people differently; people new to it or returning to it after a long hiatus are going to be completely incapacitated if they smoked the amount that I’m used to smoking. 

That’s exactly the same as alcohol, a big drinker wouldn’t feel it at .1 , while someone who doesn’t is sloshed at .05.  Doesn’t matter, the law says 1 size fits all.

hillrat > CalzoneGolem 12/11/2019 at 14:34

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You’re right, my bad. I got my samples mixed up.

Ash78, voting early and often > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 12/11/2019 at 14:54

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That’s exactly right — I read a similar study that basically said that despite being high & safe, they might even pose some hazard to others on the road because they’re TOO safe.

The old adage is that drunk people run red lights, high people wait for stop signs to turn green.

Ash78, voting early and often > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 14:59

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One of my favorite topics. I’m generally in favor of legalization, at the very least because we glorify the hell out of alcohol in every corner of society, despite its VERY obvious negative health effects (not even counting the social aspects of actual alcoholism). So we already legalized the most dangerous drug a long time ago.

My only beef with most weed is the variety. When I drink — anything — it’s a slow build. Even if I’m shooting tequila or something, I can easily keep count and know what to expect. Weed, OTOH, ranges from one-hit-wonders to stuff where you can smoke a whole bowl or joint and still be coherent. I never really liked that unexpected variety, but so far a lot of places that have legalized it have taken steps to grade, categorize, edibles, etc. So you know more about what you’re getting, at least (the way the Dutch have done it for decades).

I used to theorize that if we could intentionally make weed weaker so that people needed a couple joints to really get high, you could easily turn it into a more social thing. People enjoy alcohol because they stand around drinking for hours, slowly increasing their buzz. A lot of bud is more like a lightswitch — two guys walk out on the patio and come back in 5 minutes later acting like idiots. Back to the Dutch...just mix it with tobacco to reduce potentcy and slow the effects.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 15:09

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That said jus t because it’s plausible doesn’t necessarily make it true. I recall a politician in the states loudly declaring that Cannabis was a risk to peoples lives because it prevented nausea and vomiting. H e concluded that if one were to consume it along side an abundance of alcohol the person would fail to vomit and would potentially die from alcohol poisoning.

Seems plausible to the uninitiated as Cannabis does seem to ease nausea and vomiting in patients receiving chemo, but anyone who has ever mixed the two in  excess can tell you there is no faster way to get the room spinning and the bile flowing.

Sovande > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 16:46

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Weed is pretty great.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 12/11/2019 at 17:06

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Very true, plausibility isn’t the truth at all.

I’ve had times where smoking weed after a bit too much to drink has helped me settle down, I’ve had other times where it pushes me over the tipping point and I will vomit.

This is why I’m all for more studies, and I get the feeling that finding participants shouldn’t be overly difficult (please smoke this weed,  then try to do this task). So much of what is “known” is purely anecdotal evidence.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > Ash78, voting early and often 12/11/2019 at 17:22

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That’s a good take. Even cannabis of the same strain could have different effects, and I think strains have been trending towards stronger THC concentrations because it’s been regular smokers who’ve been buying the stuff for so long.

We have Kush, maybe we need a Kush Light. Like you said, something like a cigarette where you can smoke the whole thing yourself and feel relaxed rather than baked outta your mind.

As for tobacco and weed... I had a bunch of that in Europe but I personally don’t like the taste (despite the fact that I do smoke tobacco on its own as well).

gin-san - shitpost specialist > 412GTI 12/11/2019 at 17:31

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I guess that’s it - normally, I smoke when I know I have nowhere else to go for the day. Either that, or I’m hanging out with friends having drinks and smoking a bit, but I wouldn’t be driving anyway because of the drinking.

Perhaps part of the problem is people legislating cannabis without really knowing or understanding its effects.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 17:54

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I think the varying effects on an individual basis make it too difficult to quantify. They want to enact limits in the same way they’ve grown accustomed to for alcohol and drugs and it simply just doesn’t work that way for Cannabis. With alcohol and most narcotics there are measurable repeatable limits where impairment is reached, often based largely on body weight, and there are fairly clear timelines indicating where impairment ends. With Cannabis the effects can vary wildly from person to person given the same amount of intake and body mass has no real bearing on it. Frequent users store the residual cannabinoids in their bodies with no psychoactive effects, making limits based on arbitrary thresholds completely non-representative of their current state of impairment. Also with increased use comes increased tolerance, so an amount that might put a new and casual user deep into the recesses of the sofa for an hour or so might have no appreciable effect on the person sitting next to them.

The “best” they’ll ever be able to do is stick some arbitrary limit on it and enforce it because “That’s the law” despite the lack of any sense or reason. Or worse yet use their “drug recognition experts” who have made their living off of prohibition to study you while you perform stupid human tricks on the side of a dark highway, leaving you at the mercy of an individual  who is paid by the government to levy charges against people for a living. Fun times.

I’m glad that BC has been fairly practical about enforcement thus far. Since legalization no one has been charged for impaired driving due solely to Cannabis. On one hand they probably don’t want the constitutional challenge that would surely follow, and on the other they should know by now it doesn’t have the same types of negative effects on drivers as alcohol. Either way, I’ll take it. Though I suspect if there were a portable tester on every belt and charges they knew would stick, they’d be doing it up.

With that said, time for a dab.

gin-san - shitpost specialist > This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: 12/11/2019 at 18:56

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I’m just about to fire up the volcano, myself. 

Also, Isle of Jura 12 was on sale so I guess I’m gonna be having a glass of scotch with it, too.

M y driving is done for the day so fuck it.

This is what we'll show whenever you publish anything on Kinja: > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/11/2019 at 19:40

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Nice. I had mine powder coated red while I was having my valve covers done a few years back. It’s sitting next to the e-nail. :)

(crinkle crinkle)

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > Ash78, voting early and often 12/11/2019 at 22:48

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The potency is a real issue. culturely we know, pint of 6% beer = glass of 15%wine, sho t of 40%

With a neighboring state legalizing I know 2 folks, one early 30s, other late 50s that decided to try again . The 30 year old “smoked a lot in highschool” took an edible, didn’t feel anything, after 30 minutes only a minor buzz , assumed they still had their tolerance, took 2 more and were tripping balls 15 minutes later.

The 6 0 year old, same history, smoked some and came back to the party 10 minutes later white as a ghost, and like a zombie . next day “that was nothing like we had in the 7 0s.”

Dogsatemypants > gin-san - shitpost specialist 12/12/2019 at 02:24

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In washington state, many  businesses have elected to drop screening for thc on pre employment. 

Dogsatemypants > Ash78, voting early and often 12/12/2019 at 02:33

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Everybody i s a bit different and there’s part of the problem. While i think it is a good idea to impose a limit on what is considered safe and responsible use when it comes to motoring. The trouble is, other than field sobriety testing, there isn’t a reliable method to measure how affected somebody is.

I would guess it would be about 30 days from now before i dropped below the 50ngm dui threshold for my home state. 

Ash78, voting early and often > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 12/12/2019 at 09:16

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To put it another way, with weed (or pills, etc) I can basically ruin my night in just 30 seconds. With alcohol, that usually takes a lot more work unless I’m under a funnel full of bourbon. Which I have never done...

I don’t like binary outcomes. I also don’t like the side effect of rapid heart rate, bloodshot eyes, nasal congestion, distraction, and paranoia. Acceptable if we’re talking about a life-saving cancer drug, but a little annoying to me for a “ light recreational drug.”

If it were legal, I’d still very rarely partake, but I’m not trying to legislate my opinions and experience. The evidence is pretty strongly in favor of it being legal.